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On Today’s Show:
Guest: ACLU Investigative Reporter Curt Guyette will visit tonight’s program to talk about the full details of the Flint, Michigan Lead Filled Toxic Water Crisis. Guyette, a Award-Winning Reporter – formerly writing for the Metro Times – Detroit, has keenly followed and has written a series of articles on this important issue as it relates to flaws in Michigan’s Controversial Emergency Management law.

Below is a written transcript for those unable to clearly hear the broadcast:

Curt Guyette
ACLU
Flint, MI
Toxic Water Scandal
Independent Radio Talk
10.15.15

Monica:
We are so pleased to welcome to our broadcast,
journalist Curt Guyette.
So, Welcome!
He works for the ACLU as an investigative reporter.
Previously, he worked for the Metro times pretty much covering stories around government improprieties

Hi Curt!

Curt:
I’m doing so great, thanks for having me on — it’s a pleasure.

Monica:
To me, I’m just so geeked about having you on the show and I know you’ve done a lot of work around the Flint Water situation.
Um I know I gave a brief intro, but was there anything you wanted to add?

Curt:
No, the only thing to add is that the ACLU hired me to investigate and report on exclusively, issues
involving emergecy management and the reason that I started going up to Flint, and writing about whats going on up there,
is that everything related to all these water problems are directly related to the imposition of an Emergency Manager who had complete control over Flint’s government — actually there was a whole series of Emergency Managers who had complete control, and all these problems are intricately tied to Emergency Management and what happens when you take democracy away from people

Monica:
Oh yeah, definitely, definitely.
I know our listeners are very astute in regards to Emergency Management Law, starting with PA4 back in 2011 and then the citizens repealed that in 2012 by referendum process, and then 3 weeks later they passed PA436, which was the same law with even more power for the Emergency Manager, so let me start with that question first.

Obviously, previous to this point the Emergency Managers did not have so much financial power in order to be able to make decisions over the elected leadership, whether that be a city council, the township, a school board or even a village board.

Why is it you think this is even active — ’cause to me it just doesn’t seem like that was a democracy type of viewpoint of any type of government, that you would have one person without any checks or balances making decisions for flint, and for other cities across the state that have been subjected to Emergency Managers.

Curt:
Yeah, it is completely anti-democratic, and I think the situation in Flint exposes some glaring flaws in the law
in a way that haven’t really been exposed elsewhere. But you’re absolutely right, that this was a law that was rammed down the throats of the people of Michigan.
They turned out in large numbers and, as you said, voted against its predecessor, PA4 pretty resoundingly and then the governor and the lame duck legislature came back and jammed the same thing, or in a lot of ways a very similar thing, even though the people clearly didn’t want to give this much power to one appointed official.
And now we’ve seen the consequences of that
That this Emergency Manager could order the city Leave Detroit water system and start using the clearly unsafe Flint River as the city’s primary water source.
And that to the point where, at one point the city council voted to return to the Detroit system after seeing how bad it was, after seeing people getting sick, after seeing all these problems result, and the Emergency Manager said, “Tough. You’re going to drink it whether you like it or not,” and he didn’t have any say in the matter and it’s almost the attitude is that crass on the part of the Emergency Manager, who, you know, for the most part, have no connection to the cities that they are in charge of, they have no obligations to the citizenry, their only obligation is to the governor and to do whatever they can to make it appear that the books are balanced and make it look like their reign has been successful.

Monica:
Wow. Yeah, it definitely has been disturbing since 2011 in various cities in Michigan, including Flint. And this situation in Flint is probably, in my opinion, just astounding and probably borderline incompetent, but also maybe even borderline investigation –Federal investigation that needs to go on, because when I look at it from the things I have researched, the people of Flint have been saying that their water has been brown, murky, pasty, black, filled with rocks, and various other things that water should not be since about 2012 and then going into 2014.
So, again, can you give us a little bit history on when the appointed Emergency Manager, who was not elected, and who was appointed by Governor Rick Snyder, decided to make the switch?

Curt:
Yes, well, it’s really a two part thing, in a way, which was that one of the Emergency Managers made a decision that Flint was going to be a partner in the building of a pipeline from Lake Huron to Genessee county, and so it was a way to get away from the Detroit System and rely on their own pipeline to provide water to Flint and other parts of Genessee county. Subsequent to that, Detroit, there was a 50 year contract between Detroit and Flint, and Detroit was restructuring how it did its rates but it said, “We want to continue providing Flint with Detroit water until you start using the pipeline water.
And, in 2014, Emergency Manager Darnell Earley, who was the 3rd Emergency Manager over Flint, wrote a letter to the Detroit Department of Water and Sewarage (DWSD) saying “Thanks for the offers.” Matter of fact, I have the letter right here in front of me. It was on March 7th, 2014, and the ACLU of Michigan got this letter through filing of Freedom of Information Act (FOA) request, and its to the Director of DWSD, saying “Thank you for your correspondence which provides Flint with the opportunity to continue using Detroit water from DWSD.” So, that’s important because just last week, and again this week, the governors spokesperson, Sara Wearful, has tried to assert that the city didn’t have any choice; that the termination of this contract forced them to start using the river water. That is absolutely untrue and this letter is what proves it is untrue.
Detroit wanted to keep providing water – they would have been crazy not to! They would have been cutting off their nose to spite their face if they would have just said, “Oh, we’re kicking you off.” They wanted to keep selling for as long as they could. Because they needed the income. So, in order to absolve themselves of responsibility. both Flint city officials and Michigan officials continue to claim that they didn’t have any choice, that they were kicked off of Detroit, and that is just not true. They made the choice to switch to the river because they thought it would be a money saver. They thought it would be cheaper. Initially they said it would save them $5M, now they are saying $12M, but regardless of that, it didn’t really save them any money.
First of all, they poisoned the kids. You have all the costs associated with having educate those kids. They have learning disabilities, they have behavioral disabilities, so they are going to have to receive special education, which drives way up the cost of educating a child. And then there is the issue of the school-to-prison pipeline further down the road! So, in a lot of ways, the costs of this are really almost incalculable to the society, and that’s not to mention the fact that the water is so corrosive that it’s done tremendous amounts of damage to the infrastructure itself. Mark Edwards, an expert at Virginia Tech, who’s been critically involved in testing the water in Flint, said that he estimates that its taken maybe a dozen years off the life of the infrastructure there. And so that, again, is another way that everything they are claiming as savings are really just false savings — it’s just not readily apparent.
There are going to be costs down the road, associated with this — but those costs are in the tens, and tens, and tens of millions of dollars, so any claims that they’ve saved money is false. They’ve cost a lot of money by making this terribly wrong-headed and calamitous decision to switch over to the river.

Monica:
Yeah, the long term impacts of what the lead has done to these children and possibly even adults and the pets too, because pets drink water.

Curt:
I’m sorry, so, to get back then to the timeline, so in april of 2014, the switch was pulled and Flint began getting its water from the river instead of Detroit. And almost, really, from day one, there were problems. Like you said, with just way the water looked and smelled… People could tell it was not good. And then, very soon afterwards, there began to be problems with E Coli, and so the city had issued 3 boil water warnings, because of the bacterial contamination of the water. In response to that, the city began to increase the amount of chlorine that was put into the water, and actually, what that did, was over chlorinate. And that chlorination led to the formation of a carcinogenic by product called total trihalomethanes (TTHM), and that was in the water for 9 months before they even told people that it was there. And so then there was a reaction to trying to address that problem. And then while they were addressing the carcinogenic problem, the issue of lead began to roil underneath the surface, and there were warnings, probably as early as march of this year, that there were problems with lead. And actually, they were predictable. When you look at the high level of corrosion that’s in the Flint river, anybody with any knowledge of water and water treatment would say that you’re going to have a problem with lead, because it is so corrosive, it is going to cause lead to start leaching into the water. Which is exactly what happened – but instead of admitting
that there was a problem and owning up to their mistake the response of the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality was to consistently try to attack anybody that was trying to raise the alarm. Their initial response was that, “Geez, people in Flint could just relax when it came to concerns about lead in their water.” And that was an actual quote.

Monica:
Relax?!?

Curt:
Yes.

Monica:
They actually say relax. Wow. That is incredible.

Curt:
In July, Brad Wuerful, who’s the spokesman for the Department of Environmental Quality, told that to a pulbic radio reporter who was following up on a story that WE did, where we released an internal EPA memo where a water expert at the EPA was saying there’s definitely great cause for concern about what’s going on in Flint, the situation. There’s guaranteed to be issues of lead because of the high corrosivity of the water. So, the MDEQ wouldn’t answer my questions, they answered someone else’s questions, but their response was to downplay and really discredit the alarm being sounded in that memo.
So what happened was that, the ACLU of Michigan began working with both citizens, and there’s a whole group of groups who formed the Coalition for Clean Water, which has been relentless in pushing for straight answers and to get to the bottom of this problem, and the researchers at Virginia Tech University. And we got together and came up with a plan to say, “Well, we’re going to do our own tests,” and at Virginia Tech, Mark Edwards is his name, who is an amazing, amazing scientist, got an emergency grant from the National Science Foundation. Got money to distribute 300 test kits all throughout Flint, and the members of the coalition worked like crazy to get the kits distributed. When Edwards applied for his grant, he gave a budget, and he said he thought that out of the 300 kits that were going to be distributed, he expected to get 75 back, because based on past experiences, that’s kinda the rate of return you get. We collected 277 samples.

Monica:
Oh, my goodness!

Curt:
Completely blew them away. But the reason they collected so many was because this group of citizens was just so driven to get to the truth, and they wanted, they felt, a little bit bad because they didn’t get all 300, but they just blew everybody away with the amount of water samples that they collected. In little over a 2 week period, they collected 4 times as many samples as the city collected in 6 months. Ya know?

Monica:
That’s incredible and a shame at the same time. It’s incredible the type of citizens we have, and a shame that the city officials couldn’t manage to do something similar.

Curt:
Yeah, no that’s okay. And you’re absoluty right, it really puts the city to shame and you could not give these people who did this enough credit, ya know, I thought, going on, they were running themselves ragged, in order to get these kits distributed and collected. And we worked really hard to make sure the results were unassailable, even though we knew that they were going to try and attack us no matter what. We did everything we could in order to insure that everything was as sound as possible, including at one point after 200 kits had been distributed, we looked at where they were and what zipcodes they were in and what parts of the city were being under tested, and then we went out and started knocking on doors in those neighborhoods, in order to get as broad and equal a distribution as possible. And so, meanwhile, the city continues to assert that the water is safe, they keep pointing to the TTHM issues and saying, “Oh, we got that under control and the water is safe.” Meanwhile, they are getting, along with an EPA memo, they’re getting tests back showing high lead levels in homes that they’re testing. So, they don’t tell people that — they keep saying that the water is safe.

Monica:
So, I want to circle back on that point.
So, the city got information back, saying that there were high amounts of lead in the water, and instead of immediately acting on that, they didn’t?

Curt:
Correct. They just continued to claim that the water was safe. But the Virginia Tech people, as soon as they started getting sample kits back — let’s see, the sample kits arrived in Flint in mid-August, and we started getting the samples to Virginia Tech almost immediately, and as soon as Virginia Tech started analyzing it, they started seeing high lead levels. Ya know, alarmingly high lead levels. And so they didn’t even wait until the whole study had been completed, as soon as they started finding those lead levels they started posting the results on a website, and calling the people whose water had shown high lead, to warn them. In the words of Mark Edwards, ya know, they felt ethically and morally compelled to act immediately — unlike the city, unlike the state. It was the scientists at Virginia Tech who felt the moral and ethical obligation to begin notifying people immediately of what they were finding in their water. And so, they continued gathering samples, analyzing them and on September 15th, we held a press conference saying what the results were, which was that, according to the EPA rules, if 10% of homes tested have water lead levels of 15 parts per billion (ppb), they have to start having to taking action to address the problem. The city said they were at 11ppb — which is still high enough that it causes concern and people should be warned but they were saying, “We are in compliance with Federal Standards.” The VT study found 25ppb — so, way beyond the Federal action level.

Monica:
Oh, my goodness!

Curt:
And so, it was clear that there was a problem, and the other thing is that while that was going on, we were conducting a parallel investigation, because the question would be, “Well, how come Virginia Tech is showing that its way above the action level, and the city and state analysis says its below action level?” Because the city and state were doing a number of things that the results were to skew the test and put the levels lower than what they actually are.

Monica:
So, the city and state basically skewed their results in order to meet an expectation that they wanted irregardless of what the true results from another scientific study basically confirmed.

Curt:
Correct. Correct.

Monica:
Oh, wow.

Curt:
Correct. And then, and still, they attempted to discredit Edwards — Edwards is one of the countries foremost experts on water and corrosion and water systems, and in fact is the guy that identified a problem in the Washington DCs system in the mid-2000s and received a MacArthur Genius grant, because of his work — he’s, ya know, an extraordinary guy. And the response of the DEQ, again, Brad Weurful, issued a statement saying, “Oh, y’know, these guys tend pull a rabbit out of their hat wherever they go, because they’re looking to pull a rabbit out of their hat.” And basically, impugning the integrity of their scientific credentials and this citizen led effort to get to the truth.

Monica:
That is just a shame! That’s terrible! Why would anyone, especially an offical from the governor’s office, just, ya know, just arbitrarily say that a scientist in an entire other state, that is world renowned, would just basically, skew results — because that would do… what for the scientists?

Curt:
Right, and that’s a good question. But here, you know, there’s no logical answer to that. But there is a logical answer on the other side which is, why would they be motivated to say that, and that’s because it goes back to Emergency Management. It was the Governor’s Emergency Manager who made the decision to switch to the river. and it was the Governor’s MDEQ that was responsible for making sure that the river water was safe. And so they both got caught with their pants down, and in order to try and cloud the situation, they do what people who are caught with their pants always do — they tried to divert attention away from them and put it on somebody else, and discredit sombeody else, and that’s exactly what they did. And so that was their line of attack. Then, after that, a doctor at Hurley’s Children’s Hospital in Flint, did a study of her own, and it kind of built on the study that Edwards did, and what she did was look at lead levels in kids, and she looked at two periods: a 9 month period, before the switch to the Flint river, and 9 month period after the switch to the Flint river. And what she found was that the number of kids with elavated levels of lead in their blood doubled in the 9 month period after the switch to the river. And they further found that in the areas where the Virginia Tech test found the highest levels of lead in the water, those same areas, kids had the highest levels of lead in their blood. So there was a correlation between the Virginia Tech test and where they were finding high lead in the water, and the kids that had high levels of lead in their blood. One other thing that Hurley did was that, during the same period, they also looked outside of Flint, in other parts of Genessee County, and their was no statistical difference in their lead blood levels. So, it was just kids in Flint, and it was only after the switch to the river. So clearly, the switch to the river was causing this problem, and the scientists would have said, “Well, that would be predictable, because of how corrosive the river was.” And here’s another thing that is outrageous-

Monica:
Sure.

Curt:
the Detroit system, they put phosphates in the water, which is a kind of corrossion control measure. it creates a biofilm that helps keep the particles of lead adhered to the pipe rather than leach into the water. when they switched to the river, along with the river being at least 5 times more corrosive than detroit’s river water is, they also stopped putting corrosion control into the water. and so, at a time when the corrossion control was most needed, they stopped using it, so that was-

Monica:
That was terrible!

Curt:
It is. And it is completely inexplicable. The only possible explanation is that they were trying to cut corners and save some money by not putting something in the water that was needed. So, again, the states initial response after the Hurley results were made public, was to again try to discredit it — they said, “Well we don’t know how they got it, and another thing, there are seasonal differences that they don’t take into account,” but they compared the exact same nine month period. So-

Monica:
Right, what seasonal differences — ya know nine months is nine months. You got spring, summer, maybe fall, and if the levels are similar or the same, are over 15ppb during that time, that’s pretty conclusive.

Curt:
Right. But desperate people say ludicrous things. Because they don’t have the truth to rely on, they have to just make up ludicrous things. And, another thing they said was, “Oh, the Hurley data doesn’t really comport with what we have on file with the state data” and they turned it over to the Detroit Free Press, and their data person analyzed the state data and said, “Well, just the opposite — you’re data confirms what Hurley found.” And at that point, it was like, game over, ya know. They had the state, despite their attempts to discredit everybody else’s science, the state was completely discredited. And so, initially the response from the Governor and his cabinet, a week after that Hurley study — cause that Hurly study was really a game changer. That, for as important as the Virginia Tech study was, they were still trying to discredit it. That Hurley study, that was like the final nail, and they couldn’t — they didn’t have any choice but to admit that there was a problem with lead in Flint, based on that. So first they said, “Oh, you know, we’re going to hand out water filters to everybody.”

Monica:
That doesn’t fix the problem.

Curt:
No, it doesn’t fix the problem. And the pressure was so intense, that less than a week after making that announcement, the Governor was holding a press conference in Flint announcing that they were switching back to Detroit until the pipepline is completed. But if it wasn’t for the citizens, ya know, working with VT and working with us in order to try and get the truth out. kids in Flint would still be getting lead poisoned — I don’t think there’s any doubt about that.

Monica:
No — not from what we’ve talked about here! It appears pretty much now, you can say there is conclusive evidence that it was a coverup on behalf of the highest authorities in this state, including the officials of those authorities in order to continue letting lead seep into Flints water and do nothing. And whoever is in Flint, that happens to be drinking the water, just would have, in their opinon, drunk the water full of lead. This is just unconscionable.

Curt:
It is unconscionable. It is absolutely unconscionable. And still no one from the state or the city has issued an apology. You know, it’s kind of like a very lame, “Oh, you know, we didn’t know then what we know now… and that we’re going to go back and do, in the governors words, an after action report to make sure these kinds of problems don’t happen again going forward.” which is baloney — that was a limp, lame response — people need to be held accountable for these decisions.

Monica:
People need to be held accountable.

Curt:
And answers that have not yet been forthcoming, as far as what they knew about the river before the change over was made, need to be answered. There are hard questions that need to be answered, and so far they have done their best to avoid answering them. But here’s one of the things, for quite a while, no one else was reporting on this. We were kind of out there all by ourselves, reporting on this, kind of a little bit of a lonely voice in the wind, you know. But, that, finally, after the Hurley study, other media started to realize what a big, important story this was. So, now the hounds are loose, and it’s not only us that are trying to get answers to these questions, the Detroit Free Press has been doing some amazing work on this, the Flint Journal has been doing very, very good work, Michigan Public radio has been doing very, very good work on this. And so there’s a lot of media attention, you know, national media attention are covering it, but people in the state, they’re now on the trail and its being attacked in a number of different ways. And one way or another, the truth is going to come out here and people are going to be held responsible and accountable for this. Now, they’re all turning on each other, you have Darnell Earley, who was the Emergency Manager with these vast powers when the decision to switch over was made, whose name is at the bottom of that letter I read to you earlier, saying, “I didn’t really have anything to do with that decision.”

Monica:
Really?!?

Curt:
Yes. You have Flint city officials, saying “Oh, it was the states decision not to use corrosion controls” and we don’t really know why they made that decision, and the state has given all sorts of answers as to whether corrosion control was used or not, or if they were required to use it or not. So they’re all pointing their fingers at each other and doing the best they can to duck their own responsibility but again, they’re not going to be able to get away with it. People are demanding accountability, and at some point, I believe, there is going to be a full accounatability.

Monica:
Well, there needs to be, because at this point the next step seems, possibly, would be, you can’t trust the authorities, whether that is the governors office, or the MDEQ, to do anything. They basically covered this up for years, might as well say, you can’t really trust their word to do a proper investigation. So an internal investigation that is done by the governors office demanded by the governor is not the right investigation. Or even an investigation that would be done by city officials because, they knew lead was in the water and decided to pretty much do nothing, so you can’t trust either one of those authorities, so you have to take it outside, at this point, the state of Michigan. What’s your thoughts on that, Curt?

Curt:
Yeah, I’m not sure who the proper authority is to do it, but you’re absolutely correct. It wouldn’t be an investigation if they’re doing it, it would be an exercise in coverup, because they’re not going to identify their role in what they did. So you’re absolutely right, you cannot believe anything that is going to come out of them in terms of “an after action report,” there’s no credibility to that whatsoever. I know that one of the state legislature has called upon the attorney general’s office to investigate, but there are all sorts of different avenues to try and to compel people to disclose information about this. I’m not necessarily the person who should be identifying what specific things should be done, but it needs to be done by somebody and more than one entity — because this is such a horrible, horrible thing that has been done to the people of Flint.

Monica:
Alright, it kind of goes back to two things: #1 – the work of the relentless citizens that would not give up because they knew what they were saying was correct and right. Because the water was toxic, the water was corroded and full of lead. There’s not enough to say about those citizens that continued to push ahead despite officials that are supposed to be in the position of authority in this state basically telling them everything they saw before them wasn’t there when it was. And then you also have to look at the second half of this which is the children, the ones that now have this lead posioning in their system, and the long terms effects of that. Brain degeneration, IQ levels that will drop, behavioral issues. Those could be in the tens of millions of billions of dollars. Has any of these officials that made these decisions, that, in the very least, were very questionable, have any of them come up or basically said, we’re going to supply some kind of monetary compensation for the people and children who were affected by the lead?

Curt:
No. And they’re not going to voluntarily do that, because that would be admitting culpability. I mean they won’t even say they’re sorry because that would be an admission of guilt if you say your sorry for something. So, not the governor, not the head of Department of Environmental Quality, not the mayor of Flint — no one has said, “We’re sorry for doing this to you” because that would be accepting blame and responsibility.

Monica:
Yeah, yeah so, going back to the tenets of how all this happened, which is the emergency manager law. At this point in time, were trying to do a referendum that was changed in 2012, even the standards of trying to attempt a referendum went from, I think 155K valid signatures to somewhere in the area of 350K valid signatures. So until such time as things change in Lansing, do you see the Emergency Management Law going anywhere else before Rick Snyder is out of office in 2018, and could another city in Michigan experience the same or similar aspects of it that the city of Flint has because of the Emergency Management Law?

Curt:
Well, I mean one thing, and this is, when they jammed 436 through during that lame duck session of the legislature, one thing they did was tacked an appropriation on to the bill, and when you do that, it makes it referendum proof. So people can’t even rise up and do what they did before and abolish this law, because they did a sneaky little parliamentary trick by attaching appropriations to it that made it referendum-proof. So again, it’s almost like the Emergency Manager saying, “Shut up and drink this water whether you like it or not,” its the governor and the legislature saying “Shut up and accept this law whether you like it or not, because you don’t have any choice — we’re taking the choice away from you.” So it’s an anti-democratic maneuver to help keep in place an anti-democratic law. I mean, that’s how insane things are around this issue.

Monica:
Yeah, “Insane!” That’s one word to say. I can probably think of a bunch of others! Are you still in contact with some of these citizens who’ve done such miraculous work, and what do they say to you?

Curt:
That they want people to be held accountable. I mean, after the governor’s press conference last week, they were outside. And there were a lot of hugs and a real feeling of incredible accomplishment, to know that despite the odds, despite everything working against them, they were able to persevere and finally get them to switch back to the Detroit Water System. It was like one person said, it was a bittersweet victory. The sweetness is that they were able to get that accomplishment, the bitter part is that all these people were exposed to lead for all that time. So you can’t feel too much joy over the whole thing because the foundation is so so horrible. But, they were definitely, but you know, it was a real unique moment, but by the same token, they were already looking ahead and saying, “the people who did this to us need to be held accountable.”

Monica:
Well, yeah — Accountability! It’s still to come, for sure. I know we’ll be following who is held accountable for what has happened, because this is a tragedy. I don’t believe that we’ve ever experienced something similar to this in Michigan that I know of — have you ever heard of anything of this nature beforehand?

Curt:
Boy, um, no. I’ve been a reporter here for 20 years and I’ve been around and I haven’t seen anything quite like this. But then, the Emergency Management Law is relatively new, and one of the things this does is that it exposes the absence of checks and balances, you mentioned checks and balances being a critical part of a functioning democracy earlier, and this law takes away checks and balances, because in a normal situation you would have the city of Flint as an independent actor taking these water samples and the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality as an independent actor overseeing and making sure everything was done correctly. That’s not the situation. The situation is, you have the governor’s Emergency Manager making the decision to switch to the river, and you have the governors Department of Environmental Quality there, as it turns out, covering up that bad decision by making it appear that the water was safe, and claiming incessently that the water was safe when it wasn’t. And so, a fundamental flaw to the Emergency Management Law has been exposed because of all this. So that’s certainly a new thing, but in terms of how big this issue is, how horrible a story it is, it’s really difficult to think of anything in memory that equates to it, because it was a completely avoidable disaster.

Monica:
Yeah, yeah, it wouldn’t be multiple times as horrible if people wouldn’t be trying to cover their tracks when they say the emporor has no clothes, this is definitely a great example of that. Well, thank you so much, Curt, for coming on to our show, Independent Underground Radio Live, and giving our audience a lot of details in regards to the situation in Flint and them going back to the Detroit water. But this story is continuing, cause the impact of what has happened is nowhere near resolved and nowhere near fixed. And so we will continue to cover the story going ahead and until multiple people are held accountable for their decisions which have led to lead poisoning in a lot of people in Flint. Thank you so much for your time; we definitely appreciate it. If people want to follow you or read your material how can they do so?

Curt:
We have a blog, aclumich.org, and look for DemocracyWatch. They will see all sorts of reporting that has been done around this issue.

Monica:
Okay, thanks again!

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